Solo Woodwinds
More CC control please

I would like to have CC control over the parameters that currently do not have it, especially:

  • Attack to Sustain time
  • Auto expression
  • Release

etc.

This would give us a much greater ability to shape the sound via programming.

Thanks,

Rich

I would like to have CC control over the parameters that currently do not have it, especially: - Attack to Sustain time - Auto expression - Release etc. This would give us a much greater ability to shape the sound via programming. Thanks, Rich

A decent DAW (such as Reaper) provides means to modulate DAW parameters via Midi. I use this all the time.
Reaper even accepts high resolution (14 bit instead of standard 7 bit) for this. Hence in certain cases, the control is even better than with CCs sent to the plugin - as SWAM does not accept Midi HR CC.
(BTW an early version of the VST3 specification did not allow to send Midi CC to the plugin.)
-Michael

A decent DAW (such as Reaper) provides means to modulate DAW parameters via Midi. I use this all the time. Reaper even accepts high resolution (14 bit instead of standard 7 bit) for this. Hence in certain cases, the control is even better than with CCs sent to the plugin - as SWAM does not accept Midi HR CC. (BTW an early version of the VST3 specification did not allow to send Midi CC to the plugin.) -Michael
edited Jul 8 at 6:17 am

@richhickey the parameters you listed are supposed to be "static", i.e. not controllable in realtime. Why would you need to control them via MIDI CC?

I'm asking to know what are the insights behind the user needs, so we can eventually include some changes in our pipeline.

Best!

@richhickey the parameters you listed are supposed to be "static", i.e. not controllable in realtime. Why would you need to control them via MIDI CC? I'm asking to know what are the insights behind the user needs, so we can eventually include some changes in our pipeline. Best!

For me, most of the controls that aren't CC mappable I would like to control not so much for dynamic playing but for managing multiple instruments at once. I use CCs a lot of the time for managing instruments parameters in bigger projects. For example, let's say I have a SWAM string orchestra of 16 players and realize half-way through my work that I prefer the sound of them with less rosin, or less brightness, if I have already assigned a CC to that parameter I could change it for all of the instruments at once simply by turning a knob or fader (in my case I create devices in my project which send CC values to whichever track is armed and name the virtual knobs according to the parameter they control).

In any case, I think it's just always better to have the ability to control parameters than not. Isn't it possible btw to learn parameters so that my DAW could automate it? Every plugin I have lets me do it except SWAM instruments. I tried pretty much all instruments both VST and AU and I can't configure any parameter to connect to my DAW. I think this method might be more slick than to list all of the parameters with their respective CC...but even then, there aren't a whole lot of parameters that are left unmappable so why not just add them to the others anyway? smile

(BTW : for my specific needs, I'd really like to be able to control Accent, Rosin, Strings Res, OpenStrings and Brightness for SWAM Strings instruments because I tend to play around with them a lot, and then have to go through all of my instruments to match the settings)

For me, most of the controls that aren't CC mappable I would like to control not so much for dynamic playing but for managing multiple instruments at once. I use CCs a lot of the time for managing instruments parameters in bigger projects. For example, let's say I have a SWAM string orchestra of 16 players and realize half-way through my work that I prefer the sound of them with less rosin, or less brightness, if I have already assigned a CC to that parameter I could change it for all of the instruments at once simply by turning a knob or fader (in my case I create devices in my project which send CC values to whichever track is armed and name the virtual knobs according to the parameter they control). In any case, I think it's just always better to have the ability to control parameters than not. Isn't it possible btw to learn parameters so that my DAW could automate it? Every plugin I have lets me do it except SWAM instruments. I tried pretty much all instruments both VST and AU and I can't configure any parameter to connect to my DAW. I think this method might be more slick than to list all of the parameters with their respective CC...but even then, there aren't a whole lot of parameters that are left unmappable so why not just add them to the others anyway? :) (BTW : for my specific needs, I'd really like to be able to control Accent, Rosin, Strings Res, OpenStrings and Brightness for SWAM Strings instruments because I tend to play around with them a lot, and then have to go through all of my instruments to match the settings)
edited Jul 24 at 9:50 pm

Isn't it possible btw to learn parameters so that my DAW could automate it? Every plugin I have lets me do it except SWAM instruments.

I suppose you are talking about the "Learn" in Kontakt, that seems to work like you said: assign instrument's parameters to be accessed from outside.

With SAWM, this is not necessary, as all instrument parameters provided by the GUI are "dynamical DAW" parameters, anyway, and hence accessible by the DAW.

I have no problem doing this with Reaper by "envelopes" (otherwise called "autmation"smile or by (in Reaper) assigning Midi CCs to them, (in the same way I can do this for the parameters in Kontakt instruments after assigning them to DAW parameters in Kontakt.

(With SWAM I found that some the "DAW Names" for these parameters might be a bit cryptic / misleading.)

-Michael

> Isn't it possible btw to learn parameters so that my DAW could automate it? Every plugin I have lets me do it except SWAM instruments. I suppose you are talking about the "Learn" in Kontakt, that seems to work like you said: assign instrument's parameters to be accessed from outside. With SAWM, this is not necessary, as all instrument parameters provided by the GUI are "dynamical DAW" parameters, anyway, and hence accessible by the DAW. I have no problem doing this with Reaper by "envelopes" (otherwise called "autmation") or by (in Reaper) assigning Midi CCs to them, (in the same way I can do this for the parameters in Kontakt instruments after assigning them to DAW parameters in Kontakt. (With SWAM I found that some the "DAW Names" for these parameters might be a bit cryptic / misleading.) -Michael
edited Jul 25 at 6:45 am

Well, releases are never all the same timing and shape, why should the setting be static? The Attack-to-sustain time is also something that wouldn't be static in real playing (portato vs sforzando). For those of us using notation or DAWs without performing via breath/wind controller these settings are all we have. Changing them dynamically would create a more musical performance.

Releases in particular are a bugbear for me with SWAM. You should put more effort into parametric realistic release control, as you do attack control. At least a release envelope with dynamic timing and slope control, please. Those of us not using breath controllers shouldn't be forced to draw in every single release envelope as expression.

Well, releases are never all the same timing and shape, why should the setting be static? The Attack-to-sustain time is also something that wouldn't be static in real playing (portato vs sforzando). For those of us using notation or DAWs without performing via breath/wind controller these settings are all we have. Changing them dynamically would create a more musical performance. Releases in particular are a bugbear for me with SWAM. You should put more effort into parametric realistic release control, as you do attack control. At least a release envelope with dynamic timing and slope control, please. Those of us not using breath controllers shouldn't be forced to draw in every single release envelope as expression.

Re: DAW automation vs CC. There's no substitute for MIDI CC when it comes to portability - it can be generated via scripts, travel between programs via Rewire or IAC, be stored in standard MIDI files etc.

Re: DAW automation vs CC. There's no substitute for MIDI CC when it comes to portability - it can be generated via scripts, travel between programs via Rewire or IAC, be stored in standard MIDI files etc.

Yep !
And as said, Reaper can very easily use Midi CC as a source for modulating (aka "automating" ) any DAW parameter.
-Michael

Yep ! And as said, Reaper can very easily use Midi CC as a source for modulating (aka "automating" ) any DAW parameter. -Michael
edited Jul 29 at 6:35 am

@mschnell : I know I might be the oddball here, but I'm using Ableton Live, and I can't seem to find any parameter from my DAW. All I can do is automate CCs which are configured in the MIDI Mapping page in the SWAM plugin. So no access to parameters such as Accent, Rosin, etc... in Strings instruments. Are you saying you can automate those in Reaper?

@mschnell : I know I might be the oddball here, but I'm using Ableton Live, and I can't seem to find any parameter from my DAW. All I can do is automate CCs which are configured in the MIDI Mapping page in the SWAM plugin. So no access to parameters such as Accent, Rosin, etc... in Strings instruments. Are you saying you can automate those in Reaper?

"DAW Parameters" are shared between the DAW and the VST. This is how a DAW can save and restore the state of a VST in it's project files and restore it when the project is loaded. Hence if a parameter such as Accent, Rosin,is recalled when loading the project it obviouly is a "DAW Parameter" Thsi is how all DAWs work.
I can't decently speak for other DAWs, but AFAIK, many fo have "automation" (also called "envelopes" ) that is able to modify DAW parameters for VSTs whily playing back a project.
Reaper - supposedly the most technically advanced DAW of all - has a very sophisticated system of handling all DAW parameters of all plugins (including VSTis) and liniing them to many kinds of sources including Midi CC (including high resolution), Audio level (including side chain), LFO, Envelopes, mutual link between plugins, Hardware Control Surfaces, ...
-Michael

"DAW Parameters" are shared between the DAW and the VST. This is how a DAW can save and restore the state of a VST in it's project files and restore it when the project is loaded. Hence if a parameter such as Accent, Rosin,is recalled when loading the project it obviouly is a "DAW Parameter" Thsi is how all DAWs work. I can't decently speak for other DAWs, but AFAIK, many fo have "automation" (also called "envelopes" ) that is able to modify DAW parameters for VSTs whily playing back a project. Reaper - supposedly the most technically advanced DAW of all - has a very sophisticated system of handling all DAW parameters of all plugins (including VSTis) and liniing them to many kinds of sources including Midi CC (including high resolution), Audio level (including side chain), LFO, Envelopes, mutual link between plugins, Hardware Control Surfaces, ... -Michael
edited Jul 31 at 6:23 am

I see what you mean. I guess Ableton simply doesn't give us access to those parameters then. With plugins you need to "configure" the parameters to add them to the list of automatable parameters, but with SWAM instruments nothing happens when I move a parameter to configure them. I wonder if this is on purpose...

I see what you mean. I guess Ableton simply doesn't give us access to those parameters then. With plugins you need to "configure" the parameters to add them to the list of automatable parameters, but with SWAM instruments nothing happens when I move a parameter to configure them. I wonder if this is on purpose...

@Oneiroi Solo Strings and Solo Woodwinds do not support parameter mapping in Ableton Live. Solo Brass do.

Unfortunately, Ableton Live relies on GUI mapping only. In our opinion that's a big limitation for that DAW, as there could be several parameters not exposed on a GUI for any plugin.

The porting to the new Solo Strings and Solo Woodwinds, using the same technology as Solo Brass GUI, is proceeding as planned. We should be able to release the upgrade Before the end of 2020.

Best!

@Oneiroi Solo Strings and Solo Woodwinds do not support parameter mapping in Ableton Live. Solo Brass do. Unfortunately, Ableton Live relies on GUI mapping only. In our opinion that's a big limitation for that DAW, as there could be several parameters not exposed on a GUI for any plugin. The porting to the new Solo Strings and Solo Woodwinds, using the same technology as Solo Brass GUI, is proceeding as planned. We should be able to release the upgrade Before the end of 2020. Best!

Great !
Michael (user of the "Flutes" )

Great ! Michael (user of the "Flutes" )
edited Aug 10 at 8:34 pm

Awesome, looking forward to that release!

Thanks!

Awesome, looking forward to that release! Thanks!

@admin : Are parameters such as Accent, Rosin and others currently not mappable in the strings going to be CC mappable with the update?

@admin : Are parameters such as Accent, Rosin and others currently not mappable in the strings going to be CC mappable with the update?

Using CC input to the plugin instead of DAW parameter modulation:

Pro: (AFAIK) Midi CC provides sample-accurate timing, while DAW parameter modulation is not that "fast" - usually aligned to audio blocks.

CON: DAW parameters provide full (real value) accuracy, which can be mapped to high resolution CC (14 Bit accuracy) in a decent DAW, and in future to 16 Bit "Midi v2" without a change in the plugin - while currently most plugins unly provide standard CC (7 Bit resolution) with Midi input (and output if appropriate),

-Michael

Using CC input to the plugin instead of DAW parameter modulation: Pro: (AFAIK) Midi CC provides sample-accurate timing, while DAW parameter modulation is not that "fast" - usually aligned to audio blocks. CON: DAW parameters provide full (real value) accuracy, which can be mapped to high resolution CC (14 Bit accuracy) in a decent DAW, and in future to 16 Bit "Midi v2" without a change in the plugin - while currently most plugins unly provide standard CC (7 Bit resolution) with Midi input (and output if appropriate), -Michael
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