Camelot
How does Camelot compare to Reaper?

I use to use pro tools, but found it was heavier than I needed. I've been using Reaper, and am mostly happy with it. I like how easy it is to use, yet still has almost all the functionality I would want in a daw.

And I like how it is relatively light when it comes to CPU usage.

How does Camelot compare to Reaper?

I must admit the ability to create set lists in my daw is appealing. It can be a hassle switching between songs when performing live.

But at the same time, I need something light (from a resource utilization standpoint) and stable. Stability is especially important for live performance. Nothing worse than your daw crashing in the middle of a performance.

Having attachments in my daw for lyrics and sheet music is also a nice feature for live performance. Again, avoiding the hassle of switching back and forth. So Camelot also has that going for it.

Thanks for your feedback!

I use to use pro tools, but found it was heavier than I needed. I've been using Reaper, and am mostly happy with it. I like how easy it is to use, yet still has almost all the functionality I would want in a daw. And I like how it is relatively light when it comes to CPU usage. How does Camelot compare to Reaper? I must admit the ability to create set lists in my daw is appealing. It can be a hassle switching between songs when performing live. But at the same time, I need something light (from a resource utilization standpoint) and stable. Stability is especially important for live performance. Nothing worse than your daw crashing in the middle of a performance. Having attachments in my daw for lyrics and sheet music is also a nice feature for live performance. Again, avoiding the hassle of switching back and forth. So Camelot also has that going for it. Thanks for your feedback!

Hi @Style,

Camelot was "born to perform" ;-)

It has been strongly designed for the live performance management. You cannot compare it to any DAW, it's not a DAW, it's mostly a host.

All our effort has been put to make it stable and reliable for the live performance. We are packing the update v1.0.4 that is going to be released next week, which will be much more stable and reliable.

As for the CPU usage, it depends on how many plugins are you going to load at the same time. What we have done in Camelot is to load plugins per "Song Container". A Song Container is usually a Song, but you can decide to use it as a container for a few Songs, if you need to switch with no latency between multiple Songs.

More info on our website https://camelotpro.com and on our YouTube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLT7gu1yXoV4FByK04thNRT7ZZDwDDvgGl

Hi @Style, Camelot was "born to perform" ;-) It has been strongly designed for the live performance management. You cannot compare it to any DAW, it's not a DAW, it's mostly a host. All our effort has been put to make it stable and reliable for the live performance. We are packing the update v1.0.4 that is going to be released next week, which will be much more stable and reliable. As for the CPU usage, it depends on how many plugins are you going to load at the same time. What we have done in Camelot is to load plugins per "Song Container". A Song Container is usually a Song, but you can decide to use it as a container for a few Songs, if you need to switch with no latency between multiple Songs. More info on our website https://camelotpro.com and on our YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLT7gu1yXoV4FByK04thNRT7ZZDwDDvgGl

Camelot is a dedicated "Live performance" tool and obviously easy to use for that purpose.

I do very happily use Reaper for Live performance. It is cheap and extremely versatile, but not crafted for providing exactly this kind of "Live performance" functionality "out of the Box". Of course, other than Camelot, you can use it for usual DAW work, such as multitrack mixing/producing, as well. It's stability and efficiency seems to be quite perfect.

Hence Reaper can be used for what you want to do but it might be a lot of work to do the setup, as the count of options is huge.

To see a bunch of options you might want to read this thread -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=213568

-Michael

Camelot is a dedicated "Live performance" tool and obviously easy to use for that purpose. I do very happily use Reaper for Live performance. It is cheap and extremely versatile, but not crafted for providing exactly this kind of "Live performance" functionality "out of the Box". Of course, other than Camelot, you can use it for usual DAW work, such as multitrack mixing/producing, as well. It's stability and efficiency seems to be quite perfect. Hence Reaper can be used for what you want to do but it might be a lot of work to do the setup, as the count of options is huge. To see a bunch of options you might want to read this thread -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=213568 -Michael
edited Apr 23 at 7:02 pm

Thanks. You've given me some things to think about.

Sounds like Camelot, being more of a host than a daw, has almost got to be lighter than Reaper, although reaper is pretty light.

That link of how to setup reaper for live performance is intimidating. Tons of info! I definitely like the idea of a tool that is already setup for live performance out of the box, rather than having to go through all that. Sheece!

I'm going to have to try Camelot and see for myself.

Thanks again!

Thanks. You've given me some things to think about. Sounds like Camelot, being more of a host than a daw, has almost got to be lighter than Reaper, although reaper is pretty light. That link of how to setup reaper for live performance is intimidating. Tons of info! I definitely like the idea of a tool that is already setup for live performance out of the box, rather than having to go through all that. Sheece! I'm going to have to try Camelot and see for myself. Thanks again!

For simple stuff both will be rather easy to get going. For a more complex setup, with Camelot you are limited to what the program offers and this supposedly will be easily accomplished, while Reaper is just a versatile tool for getting "anything" done by yourself.

-Michael

For simple stuff both will be rather easy to get going. For a more complex setup, with Camelot you are limited to what the program offers and this supposedly will be easily accomplished, while Reaper is just a versatile tool for getting "anything" done by yourself. -Michael
edited Apr 24 at 6:36 am

Even though there are some shared elements, I think it's important for people to really understand the differences between a DAW (like Reaper) and a Live Performance Environment (LPE?) like Camelot, they're two completely different animals. DAWs are studio production environments. Tracking, Mixing, Mastering, sound design in a studio setting; that's what they're built for. Other examples include ProTools, Logic, MOTU Digital Performer, Cubase, Studio One, and Ableton Live.

Live Performance Environments are a much more rare breed of software, designed to be used in a live setting to augment a conventionally performed instrument such as a keyboard or guitar. They contain many macro-type features for MIDI control, routing, patch switching, etc. They also have to be far more streamlined and CPU-friendly to ensure they don't hickup during a live show. Unlike a DAW, they don't have a timeline or production capabilities, as they're meant to be played, not used to produce. Examples are Apple MainStage, Gig Performer, Cantabile, and Camelot. I think you could add iRig and GuitarRig on the 6-string end of things, as well.

The big confusion is with Ableton Live, which contrary to its name is actually a mutant DAW and not a LPE at all. It's not any more usable for performing conventional instruments than ProTools is, that's not it's focus. Programs like Ableton, Fruity Loops, and Digital Performer 10 have advanced features for looping playback of pre-recorded material with real-time manipulation, but they're extremely clunky as live synthesizer workstations or guitar rigs.

Unfortunately, since LPEs are really only useful for software-oriented traditional musicians (mostly keyboardists and a few guitarists who want to do advanced processing), their user-base is pretty small and limited.

Even though there are some shared elements, I think it's important for people to really understand the differences between a DAW (like Reaper) and a Live Performance Environment (LPE?) like Camelot, they're two completely different animals. DAWs are studio production environments. Tracking, Mixing, Mastering, sound design in a studio setting; that's what they're built for. Other examples include ProTools, Logic, MOTU Digital Performer, Cubase, Studio One, and Ableton Live. Live Performance Environments are a much more rare breed of software, designed to be used in a live setting to augment a conventionally performed instrument such as a keyboard or guitar. They contain many macro-type features for MIDI control, routing, patch switching, etc. They also have to be far more streamlined and CPU-friendly to ensure they don't hickup during a live show. Unlike a DAW, they don't have a timeline or production capabilities, as they're meant to be played, not used to produce. Examples are Apple MainStage, Gig Performer, Cantabile, and Camelot. I think you could add iRig and GuitarRig on the 6-string end of things, as well. The big confusion is with Ableton Live, which contrary to its name is actually a mutant DAW and not a LPE at all. It's not any more usable for performing conventional instruments than ProTools is, that's not it's focus. Programs like Ableton, Fruity Loops, and Digital Performer 10 have advanced features for looping playback of pre-recorded material with real-time manipulation, but they're extremely clunky as live synthesizer workstations or guitar rigs. Unfortunately, since LPEs are really only useful for software-oriented traditional musicians (mostly keyboardists and a few guitarists who want to do advanced processing), their user-base is pretty small and limited.

Reaper is not a (traditional) DAW. Other than standard DAWs it does not dictate a workflow for the user, but you can tweak and enhance it's look and feel and features close at hand by may kinds of skins, extensions, scripts, ... to make it exactly match your desire.
That is why you as well can omit any of it's "DAW" features and just use the audio/midi engine it provides "in the background" to create you own versatile "VST-Player". See -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=213568

The advantage of dedicated "Live Performance Environments"is not performance or versatility, but ease of setting up your system, as here again the software dictates a workflow that might or might not fit you project. (They are not really rare; the link above lists a good number of them.)

-Michael

Reaper is **not** a (traditional) DAW. Other than standard DAWs it does not dictate a workflow for the user, but you can tweak and enhance it's look and feel and features close at hand by may kinds of skins, extensions, scripts, ... to make it exactly match your desire. That is why you as well can omit any of it's "DAW" features and just use the audio/midi engine it provides "in the background" to create you own versatile "VST-Player". See -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=213568 The advantage of dedicated "Live Performance Environments"is not performance or versatility, but ease of setting up your system, as here again the software dictates a workflow that might or might not fit you project. (They are not really rare; the link above lists a good number of them.) -Michael
edited Jun 6 at 9:57 pm

It is true that a few more have popped up on the market over the last few years, however, in scope and size of the user base, and the feature offerings/update timetable by DAWs, live performance environments really are a fraction of the industry. I have been happy to see them grow, though.

I'll admit, I've never used Reaper, I'm coming from MOTU Digital Performer, ProTools, Logic and Ableton, so apologies if Reaper offers some of the performance features that all the others seem to lack. None of the other DAWs I've used would be particularly suited to a live performance situation. Many don't offer keyboard range splits, fast patch switching workflows, etc. I know MANY performers that do use DP live, but as much as I love the program, it seems like using a chainsaw to carve a turkey, and when I ask them about "basic" performance features like MIDI splits or fast patch switching, they all admit they don't do those. There are Byzantine tutorials of how to get Ableton to do the most fundamental patch switching and layering setups, features that would be second nature to a program like Camelot and MainStage. Yes, you can sometimes make it work, but it's often a very clunky hackish setup, full of unknowns. Last week I realized Logic can't input midi from more than 16 channels (I was trying to perform on 2 seaboards simultaneously), it doesn't even allow for conventional MIDI device routing though you can go into it's guts and re-route midi data from one device to another specific channel, but that doesn't get you anywhere with MPE instruments. You can with DP, but it's not MPE-friendly, so it's clunky, and once again, no midi region splits.

MainStage and Camelot have no problem these things. So while DAWs are big hefty things, there are many times when you find needs for live performance that they simply cannot do. Though, Reaper is one of the few DAWs I haven't used over the years.

It is true that a few more have popped up on the market over the last few years, however, in scope and size of the user base, and the feature offerings/update timetable by DAWs, live performance environments really are a fraction of the industry. I have been happy to see them grow, though. I'll admit, I've never used Reaper, I'm coming from MOTU Digital Performer, ProTools, Logic and Ableton, so apologies if Reaper offers some of the performance features that all the others seem to lack. None of the other DAWs I've used would be particularly suited to a live performance situation. Many don't offer keyboard range splits, fast patch switching workflows, etc. I know MANY performers that do use DP live, but as much as I love the program, it seems like using a chainsaw to carve a turkey, and when I ask them about "basic" performance features like MIDI splits or fast patch switching, they all admit they don't do those. There are Byzantine tutorials of how to get Ableton to do the most fundamental patch switching and layering setups, features that would be second nature to a program like Camelot and MainStage. Yes, you can sometimes make it work, but it's often a very clunky hackish setup, full of unknowns. Last week I realized Logic can't input midi from more than 16 channels (I was trying to perform on 2 seaboards simultaneously), it doesn't even allow for conventional MIDI device routing though you can go into it's guts and re-route midi data from one device to another specific channel, but that doesn't get you anywhere with MPE instruments. You can with DP, but it's not MPE-friendly, so it's clunky, and once again, no midi region splits. MainStage and Camelot have no problem these things. So while DAWs are big hefty things, there are many times when you find needs for live performance that they simply cannot do. Though, Reaper is one of the few DAWs I haven't used over the years.
edited Jun 7 at 12:04 am

I certainly agree with anything you say.

Regarding "Live Performance Environments", the market is very unstable and development is sparse. I started my journey on live computer music with a test drive of Forte, but found that it was not versatile enough for my needs, and as you know, it had been abandoned some time later.

Regarding DAWs, also Reaper does not provide any decent live playing features "out of the box". But Reaper provides the possibility to easily do scripts that can define the anything that is possible with the audio and Midi handling engine. Hence I was able to create exactly the patch change workflow I had in mind (controlled by the Surface device and targeting the three keyboards).

-Michael

I certainly agree with anything you say. Regarding "Live Performance Environments", the market is very unstable and development is sparse. I started my journey on live computer music with a test drive of Forte, but found that it was not versatile enough for my needs, and as you know, it had been abandoned some time later. Regarding DAWs, also Reaper does not provide any decent live playing features "out of the box". But Reaper provides the possibility to easily do scripts that can define the anything that is possible with the audio and Midi handling engine. Hence I was able to create exactly the patch change workflow I had in mind (controlled by the Surface device and targeting the three keyboards). -Michael
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