Camelot
Comparison Camelot Pro vs Gig Performer

Hi @cajos001, good question.
Let me start saying that Camelot Pro is still at its beginning phase: it has been released just 5 months ago and there are a lot of features on the roadmap that will be added in the next months.

Summarizing, what Camelot Pro has, that Gig Performer (and MainStage, and Cantabile) has not:

  • it runs on iPad
  • control of hardware MIDI devices in the same way as you control software instrument plugins (i.e. am external hardware device is just another "plugin", with its patch list, different "modes" and settings)
  • direct integration with supported hardware devices: patch list from the machine, hardware settings, multi-part management, MPE control of multi-part devices (i.e. you can play hardware instruments through Polyphonic Expression just selecting a single patch from Camelot)
  • PDF and image attachments
  • Smart Scene Switching: a collection of optimizations during scene switching (e.g. no sound interruption, reuse of plugin resources, do not send certain CCs if not needed, send MIDI events with certain delay time to wait for hardware sound change, ...)

What Camelot still misses:

  • Audio routing
  • Effect plugins
  • Backing tracks
  • Integration with DAWs
  • Light show and video management

Those will be added in a few months.

Here you can see a demo made for Yamaha at the latest Supertbooth 2019:
https://youtu.be/kRxHS8kyX5g

Please everybody add your thoughts here!

Hi @cajos001, good question. Let me start saying that Camelot Pro is still at its beginning phase: it has been released just 5 months ago and there are a lot of features on the roadmap that will be added in the next months. Summarizing, what Camelot Pro has, that Gig Performer (and MainStage, and Cantabile) has not: - it runs on iPad - control of hardware MIDI devices in the same way as you control software instrument plugins (i.e. am external hardware device is just another "plugin", with its patch list, different "modes" and settings) - direct integration with supported hardware devices: patch list from the machine, hardware settings, multi-part management, MPE control of multi-part devices (i.e. you can play hardware instruments through Polyphonic Expression just selecting a single patch from Camelot) - PDF and image attachments - Smart Scene Switching: a collection of optimizations during scene switching (e.g. no sound interruption, reuse of plugin resources, do not send certain CCs if not needed, send MIDI events with certain delay time to wait for hardware sound change, ...) What Camelot still misses: - Audio routing - Effect plugins - Backing tracks - Integration with DAWs - Light show and video management Those will be added in a few months. Here you can see a demo made for Yamaha at the latest Supertbooth 2019: https://youtu.be/kRxHS8kyX5g Please everybody add your thoughts here!

Well, I will buy Camelot Pro for Mac as well as the IOS version as I have great faith in Audio Modeling.

Well, I will buy Camelot Pro for Mac as well as the IOS version as I have great faith in Audio Modeling.

@cajos001 thanks for your loyalty!
You can start using the Free version on macOS (and Windows)! It is exactly the same as the full version with the following limitations:

  • you can add just up to 10 "plugins" (software, hardware or attachment)
  • you cannot backup & export

https://camelotpro.com/try-and-buy/

@cajos001 thanks for your loyalty! You can start using the Free version on macOS (and Windows)! It is exactly the same as the full version with the following limitations: - you can add just up to 10 "plugins" (software, hardware or attachment) - you cannot backup & export https://camelotpro.com/try-and-buy/

I just bought the IOS version :-) Now I just need to learn how to use it.

I just bought the IOS version :-) Now I just need to learn how to use it.

The biggie is MPE. AFAIK, neither Gig Performer nor Cantabile have any MPE support (outside of making 15copies of a midi track, yeesh). So if you have a Seaboard or Linnstrument, you can pretty much kiss those options goodbye.

MainStage has MPE support, and it should be good... but I've really been having trouble with it recently for heavy-duty Seaboard performance. I've noticed that MS has some real difficulty managing large amounts of midi controller data, which MPE instruments naturally throw out in spades. I'll often have to wait 20-30secs after a song ends for the stream to "catch up" before I can switch patches. I've also noticed this with heavy wah-wah pedal or mod-wheel performance on traditional non-MPE synths... anything that pummels the data stream. This is strange, because raw MIDI data is actually extremely light on the CPU, so MS seems to have a glitch. That said, my machine is pretty old, so it may not be an issue with newer systems.

And that's why I'm here... getting ready for an important Seaboard performance at a conference, and MS is really not cutting it. I've used MS for over 7 years professionally, it's generally been really good to me, but it's got some issues that have never been resolved.

The biggie is MPE. AFAIK, neither Gig Performer nor Cantabile have any MPE support (outside of making 15copies of a midi track, yeesh). So if you have a Seaboard or Linnstrument, you can pretty much kiss those options goodbye. MainStage has MPE support, and it should be good... but I've really been having trouble with it recently for heavy-duty Seaboard performance. I've noticed that MS has some real difficulty managing large amounts of midi controller data, which MPE instruments naturally throw out in spades. I'll often have to wait 20-30secs after a song ends for the stream to "catch up" before I can switch patches. I've also noticed this with heavy wah-wah pedal or mod-wheel performance on traditional non-MPE synths... anything that pummels the data stream. This is strange, because raw MIDI data is actually extremely light on the CPU, so MS seems to have a glitch. That said, my machine is pretty old, so it may not be an issue with newer systems. And that's why I'm here... getting ready for an important Seaboard performance at a conference, and MS is really not cutting it. I've used MS for over 7 years professionally, it's generally been really good to me, but it's got some issues that have never been resolved.

Right now the simplest solution is running Logic with tracks setup for different instruments and switching between tracks instead of loading new songs. It's instantaneous as I only use seven virtual instruments as well as the guitar in the sets. This is live BTW. Mostly SWAM Sax and regular guitar.

Mainstage does glitch sometimes when changing songs so Logic it is

Right now the simplest solution is running Logic with tracks setup for different instruments and switching between tracks instead of loading new songs. It's instantaneous as I only use seven virtual instruments as well as the guitar in the sets. This is live BTW. Mostly SWAM Sax and regular guitar. Mainstage does glitch sometimes when changing songs so Logic it is

Live playing works perfectly fine using Reaper as the audio infrastructure.
But of course Reaper is not crafted with that kind of usage in mind, and so setting up the system needs a lot of expertise.
-Michael

Live playing works perfectly fine using Reaper as the audio infrastructure. But of course Reaper is not crafted with that kind of usage in mind, and so setting up the system needs a lot of expertise. -Michael

Totally disagree about using Logic. I find MainStage to be much more robust and suited for live performance. First off, Logic can't individually input midi from multiple controllers without some serious routing work (on every song), and even then, you are limited to 16 midi channels total. That means the moment you use any MPE controller (16 channels) with even a single other board, you're screwed. MainStage seems more stable and more CPU friendly than Logic too.

I use MainStage for my money gig twice a week, for 7 years. I have about 300 "songs" (patches) preloaded into a huge concert project, alphabetized where I can switch in a fraction of a second. As a dance band, we don't use a setlist, and call songs depending upon the crowd, so I often need to be able to load a random patch mid-beat. I don't think this need is particularly specialized, most bands need to be able to "keep the beat going" all night. Yet Logic and many other DAWs have absolutely no way of making this happen. That's just the tip of the iceberg. Logic may be huge, but when you dive deep MainStage has a LOT of advanced workflow features that Logic would never be able to pull off. But if you're doing relatively simple setups, and have some time to be able to load patches between songs, I'm sure Logic can work fine. I just don't have that luxury.

I will say, Camelot is amazing, and actually builds in one of my workstation setups I've been hacking other programs to do for years. The "Scene" changes during songs is fantastic. MainStage and others don't have that. I've been setting up the same system by using an external midi router I programmed in Max/MSP, and using the midi channel to define different "scenes" within the same MainStage patch. It forms the fundamentals of my live performance workflow, and Camelot builds it in right from the beginning, which is why it's so exciting to me.

Totally disagree about using Logic. I find MainStage to be much more robust and suited for live performance. First off, Logic can't individually input midi from multiple controllers without some serious routing work (on every song), and even then, you are limited to 16 midi channels total. That means the moment you use any MPE controller (16 channels) with even a single other board, you're screwed. MainStage seems more stable and more CPU friendly than Logic too. I use MainStage for my money gig twice a week, for 7 years. I have about 300 "songs" (patches) preloaded into a huge concert project, alphabetized where I can switch in a fraction of a second. As a dance band, we don't use a setlist, and call songs depending upon the crowd, so I often need to be able to load a random patch mid-beat. I don't think this need is particularly specialized, most bands need to be able to "keep the beat going" all night. Yet Logic and many other DAWs have absolutely no way of making this happen. That's just the tip of the iceberg. Logic may be huge, but when you dive deep MainStage has a LOT of advanced workflow features that Logic would never be able to pull off. But if you're doing relatively simple setups, and have some time to be able to load patches between songs, I'm sure Logic can work fine. I just don't have that luxury. I will say, Camelot is amazing, and actually builds in one of my workstation setups I've been hacking other programs to do for years. The "Scene" changes during songs is fantastic. MainStage and others don't have that. I've been setting up the same system by using an external midi router I programmed in Max/MSP, and using the midi channel to define different "scenes" within the same MainStage patch. It forms the fundamentals of my live performance workflow, and Camelot builds it in right from the beginning, which is why it's so exciting to me.

Hi @admin ,

all of your future plans are very good.

But please don't forget to integrate pure Midi VST effects such as the piz-midi collection.
They are very very handsome for manipulating the pure Midi data flow from controller to HW synths.

And also important to implement a "manual" function to extract patch names out of manual sysex dumps of synths which have no direct integration. Or to import a manual list of patch names of the HW synth and mapped to their program change and bank select for this synth.

best regards

Hi @admin , all of your future plans are very good. But please don't forget to integrate pure Midi VST effects such as the piz-midi collection. They are very very handsome for manipulating the pure Midi data flow from controller to HW synths. And also important to implement a "manual" function to extract patch names out of manual sysex dumps of synths which have no direct integration. Or to import a manual list of patch names of the HW synth and mapped to their program change and bank select for this synth. best regards
edited Sep 16 at 6:33 pm

I’m wondering if Camelot is actually going to work as an AU host for live performance. It only takes a few instances of some of the plugins I want to use (e.g. Model D, Thor, iM1) before the memory on my iPad Pro 12.9” is almost full, and that’s only about 4-5 patches. Given that I’d like to have at least 20-30 different patches, I can’t see how Camelot is going to be a viable solution on iOS.

I’m wondering if Camelot is actually going to work as an AU host for live performance. It only takes a few instances of some of the plugins I want to use (e.g. Model D, Thor, iM1) before the memory on my iPad Pro 12.9” is almost full, and that’s only about 4-5 patches. Given that I’d like to have at least 20-30 different patches, I can’t see how Camelot is going to be a viable solution on iOS.

@Maddcow Camelot is already an AU host, i.e. for macOS, and also an AUv3 host, i.e. for iOS.

I don't get your point. We have many customers using Camelot Pro live on an iPad, using Setlists of 30 Songs.

Note that a Song is not a Patch. In our terminology, a Patch is most likely a "Scene": you can have multiple Scenes for each Song. All the resources for a Song are loaded in memory (with some smart way of saving space and CPU for multiple instances of the same plugins), while switching to another Songs will unload the "old" resources and load the new ones.

Best,
Emanuele

@Maddcow Camelot is already an AU host, i.e. for macOS, and also an AUv3 host, i.e. for iOS. I don't get your point. We have many customers using Camelot Pro live on an iPad, using Setlists of 30 Songs. Note that a Song is not a Patch. In our terminology, a Patch is most likely a "Scene": you can have multiple Scenes for each Song. All the resources for a Song are loaded in memory (with some smart way of saving space and CPU for multiple instances of the same plugins), while switching to another Songs will unload the "old" resources and load the new ones. Best, Emanuele

Sorry Lele, my choice of words didn't translate well. What I'm wondering is if Camelot is actually going to work well for me as an AU3 host on iOS. I know that it already functions as an AU3 host but I'm finding that memory seems to load up VERY quickly with only a small number of plugins loaded. However, I didn't realise that switching songs unloads old resources and loads the new ones, and will do some testing to see how that goes.

Thanks for the reply! Very helpful.

Sorry Lele, my choice of words didn't translate well. What I'm wondering is if Camelot is actually going to work well for me as an AU3 host on iOS. I know that it already functions as an AU3 host but I'm finding that memory seems to load up VERY quickly with only a small number of plugins loaded. However, I didn't realise that switching songs unloads old resources and loads the new ones, and will do some testing to see how that goes. Thanks for the reply! Very helpful.
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